After habitually consuming caffeine (not in coffee form) daily, usually multiple times a day, for more than a decade, a horrible mental health incident happened to me that forced me to stop it for a while. Afterwards I didn't resume the habit, and so I no longer have a tolerance.
This has let me evaluate what caffeine does with fresh eyes, so to say, because I can now consume it occasionally while having many non-caffeinated days to compare to. It's a profoundly psychoactive substance and does a lot of things to cognition. I guess I have decided I don't enjoy how it feels, having previously been dependent on it.
Quitting caffeine after decades of use was a bit of a mixed bag for me in the short term, but positive in the long term.
Going caffeine-free made it much easier to lose weight as I have far less cravings for high carbs and sugar now, presumably this is related to the impulsivity impact talked about in the paper.
Going caffeine-free also made me very depressed for a while with severe anhedonia, this lasted way longer (like 3-4 months) than one would generally expect for caffeine withdrawal symptoms.
I had seemingly become so used to the increased dopamine signaling while buzzed on caffeine that my brain was a mess for a rather extended period of time as it got used to not having it.
Overall I view quitting as a positive for me, but I'd warn anyone thinking about doing it to do it carefully and closely monitor their mental health. AFAIK the impacts of quitting can be quite different for different people, so my experience may differ than that of others, but I had no idea how much of a (temporary) mental health crash quitting caffeine could cause until I experienced it.
I'm almost exactly 1 year coffee-free (not caffeine free, but significantly less because tea is much less addictive for me).
Also positive in the long-term for me. Fewer digestive issues, less spiky dopamine sensitive or impulsiveness and performance during the day, better memory. I wish it weren't so.
But damn was the 3-6 months of anhedonia awful. I still feel pangs of it.
> Going caffeine-free made it much easier to lose weight as I have far less cravings
That's surprising to me. In my case one of the reasons I discontinued it (emotional effects aside) was mild but consistent weight loss. The stimulant part of the effect seems to suppress my appetite quite effectively although at least part of that is likely indirect due to sustained task focus leading me to skip meals.
I experienced a similar anhedonia when quitting caffeine. I don't think the caffeine itself was the problem, I think it was just helping a lot more than I knew with the inertia of circling the pit without tottering in.
Turns out I needed stimulants from time to time, just not that one.
What stimulants have you landed on? And do you feel they're better for you?
I'm pondering getting a coffee machine at home. 400 EUR is not a sizable investment and one I'd have forgotten about it 3 months but I'm getting cold feet when it gets to committing.
Americano coffee definitely picks me up and is a full net positive for me. But that's only if I drink 2-3 times a week. Not sure how it's going to be if I start getting it every day.
Working with a psychiatrist, I take half the minimum therapeutic dose of generic Adderall as-needed.
Caffeine makes me feel like I'm overclocked, but Adderall lets me run tasks async. The latter is so much more preferable for dealing with the demands of life.
Medicate at 4pm, then I know I can effortlessly interleave chores, family time, social obligations, and my own creative pursuits. Otherwise I'd spend my evenings on the couch stuck trying to offload unsolved problems of the workday.
Vigorous exercise accomplishes the same thing, but I can't always make that happen "as-needed".
That's pretty interesting, thank you. To me Adderall is a bridge too far though. I don't want to truly medicate (though I guess we can always argue semantics i.e. is getting coffee everyday not like medication?).
I just need something like the Americano every now and then really.
I agree on vigorous exercise completely. My last two jobs have been (well, the current one still is) hugely demanding and that led to me dropping a lot of exercise. Still trying to understand why and to undo that because I gained back 5kg (sigh).
Tried Earl Grey too. It's actually awesome but I must be careful; easy to go above a certain dose that just tires me and makes me crash.
One thing I'll try before considering the coffee machine really seriously: theacrine pills. I'll give them 2-3 weeks and will make a decision.
I have a moka pot but I guess I am doing it wrong -- maybe I should not fill its coffee compartment to the brim? is there other way of doing it? -- because the coffee that gets out destroys me: heart palpitations, slight arrhythmia, headaches, and energy crash. I can't drink too much caffeine but light doses (i.e. the Americano) actually help me and energize me. It's really weird.
What's good about the aero-press and the French press btw? I am only just trying to understand the landscape.
Moka pot coffee is definitely strong. If that's your only coffee maker, I'd just dilute that with more hot water.
An Aeropress is less concentrated in my experience, and it's pretty easy to use. I prefer iced coffee unless it's cold out, so I fill the collector with ice before I brew. The melted water dilutes it nicely, in my opinion.
Especially if you like Americanos, chances are you'll be happier with filter coffee from good beans, rather than spending it in an espresso machine.
Get an Aeropress, or Hario Switch, or Clever dripper. A kettle and some filters. For beans buy from roasters that do light/meduim roasts, and print a recent roasting date on the package/website. The only expensive item should be a grinder, look at 1zpresso Q/Air/X or Kingrinder K6 if you want to limit price.
I have a very nice grinder: a solis caffissima digital coffee grinder. It is available under a different brand name in the US I think.
I make filter coffee with a very basic earthenware filter holder with melitta high quality yet very normal filters and sometimes I mix it up with an aeropress which offers a different type of taste because of the low acidity way of making coffee. I just drip the coffee into a nice thermos so I can make 4 cups in one go and just pour from the thermos.
My coffee is much nicer than I get in most places, both professional and at homes and it doesn’t cost me a lot in effort, money and, very importantly, workspace footprint.
Espresso machines require a lot of space and maintenance and trouble to make.
Having said all this, I am quite intrigued about all the stories about the negative effects of coffee. I just thought it was about influencing sleep, but I had never thought about the memory and mood effects. I will study this some more in the coming months.
Not gonna lie, this sounds like way too much work.
What I am mostly looking for is some sort of an easy access to a diluted coffee like the Americano, really. I am OK with buying 1-2kg of beans because I am fairly sure that's going to last me 3-6 months. Cleaning the machine I've done in offices -- 3 minute job.
But any more commitment just sounds tiring. I am not a coffee connoisseur by any stretch of the imagination. But light caffeine doses absolutely do help me in very measurable ways. I need easy access to that.
Buying a coffee machine is not a big commitment obviously, I am just afraid I'll deem the experiment unsuccessful in a month and then I'll have a nice machine lying around doing nothing that I can't easily sell.
This style, pour over machine that grinds itself, but uses all water you put in, so it's not fully automatic.
It's automatic enough, but also very cheap. Maybe even ⅒ of a price of a fancy espresso machine. And you can add "too much" water (than the setting you set) to make lighter coffee.
You may have naturally low dopamine production or release (or low ATP or GTP). Everyone will react differently because genetics so you are right, everyone needs to be mindful of their reaction.
You might want to look at this pathway, and the enzymes, and the cofactors for these enzymes:
I had a similiar case with influeza the past december. I didn't eat for 4 days, fever for a long time, and low energy during the whole 4 weeks it took me to get back to normal.
I couldn't drink coffee or alcohol during those 4 weeks, and notice that I didn't get any migraines after those 4 weeks even when I, for the past 12 years, knew exactly how I got them reliably.
I didn't make sense to me to keep drinking coffee because the benefits of coffee which for me was mostly ritual and taste, didn't outweight the weight of having a migraine for sure if I slept a minute less than 8hrs.
Mind you, I'm talking about a cup almost everyday with milk, ice coffee in the mornings.
I had wild food poisoning and had a similar experience (took me out for weeks, didn’t drink coffee). I assume the body must have some sort of gating mechanism for pain; I have absolutely had caffeine withdrawal before, but not that time. I’ve since cut back and switched to tea, which I believe has helped with my anxiety.
I’m in the same spot after 4-5 weeks of norovirus. Couldn’t touch the stuff. Before, was at probably three to five cups a day. Biggest difference was waking up and feeling awake instead of in need of coffee… but I do miss it, too. Trying to decide what the new steady state is going to be. I’ve been doing one cup a day then switching to decaf while traveling, but that’s harder at home.
I've had the same experience. Caffeine is super addicting, the ritual & habits surrounding it is a potent pull. For myself, it makes me erratic, impulsive, more reactive and agitated. One cup a day puts me on edge, makes me sweat more, makes me more intolerant, makes everything feel too slow. It such a sneaky drug and it can really get under your skin without you realizing how much it changes you.
I don't have the same experience, and I drink one cup of coffee (270 ml) almost every day. No agitation, no impulsiveness. I can drink coffee in late evening (let's say 8 pm) and sleep well. I guess I'm trying to say that we should not project our own experience on others, everyone is different.
In my experience, this is common among people with ADHD (myself, friends with ADHD, family with ADHD, psychologist’s patients anecdotal evidence). YMMV
I have adhd too, but cannot use stimulant medications (they are too strong). I've had to use non-stim meds.
What if long term caffeine use causes some of the adhd symptoms? It interesting to ponder because if I stop using caffeine for a month, some of my adhd symtoms go away completely. I've done stints of complete caffeine breaks, content consumption breaks (one week or more without screens) and I felt amazing and alive. The first couple of days of using caffeine feels amazing but then I feel dead inside again and live like a robot. So in my mind, caffeine is my main target when I try to adjust my routine/behaviours.
I really only started drinking coffee at my first real job after grad school. They had free coffee in the kitchen, so I'd occassionally have one. Maybe once or twice a week. I was like that for several years, and would occassionally go weeks without a coffee. During that time, I was very productive and went from being a new grad to leading the entire team of veterans in less than five years.
After leaving that job, I now consume fairly regularly (for the past decade at least). I can still easily skip days without coffee, though I do prefer having it daily. I literally see no difference in my day to day between having coffee and not throughout my two decades of experience with coffee. I can just as easily fall asleep after a coffee and I rarely feel amped up from a coffee (if I do, then I just stop drinking it). I've certainly never felt anhedonia like many others have mentioned in the comments when I've taken breaks from coffee.
I think it's clear that people have different experiences with substances. Whether mine is a common one or not, I cannot say. But I do have a baseline to compare to and I can legitimately say the only thing that has ever caused me anhedonia was burning out from too much work (during burn out I was still consuming coffee and it didn't improve my mental state at all).
Can you speak more to the psychoactive and cognition impacts to you in specifics?
Very interested.
I am a regular coffee drinker, mostly limited to very early morning (e.g. 5-7 am). Also consume celsius here and there when I want to minimize stomach disruption in the morning (e.g. I am about to run).
But have also used THC in the past (no longer, major anxiety inducer for me). Alcohol like so many people. And more recently went on an assisted MDMA/ketamine therapy journey that continues to amaze me in its impact (in all good ways).
Asking as I am reducing caffeine slowly right now and curious what folks are seeing as differences on/off in real terms.
I've been a decaf drinker for close to a decade now, maybe my experience is interesting to you:
I have better mood, presence of mind and working memory in the morning, especially compared to caffeinated peers. I'm also a lot more aware of when I've woken up from a bad night's sleep (see paragraph 5).
I have much less mid-day dysregulation/impulses compared to caffeinated peers. No predictable afternoon slump either – but a rich lunch will always leave me foggy, lol. If it's the weekend, I'll often join my young kid for the afternoon nap and fall asleep in minutes – the 30-45 min nap usually feels amazing.
Coffee really feels to me now like the psychoactive substance it is. I've had anxiety issues for other reasons in recent years, and today a cup of caffeinated coffee will often trigger a good level of anxiety if I'm not physically active during the peak. The physical symptoms of both are very similar. If I'm moving about, it usually feels good, like something hyped me up, but the sensation comes on its own instead.
Anxiety greatly changes my sleep needs, and caffeine and alcohol both hid these sensations in the past, enough that I suspect I didn't have the interoception (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interoception) to consciously notice and adjust in the past, which would leave me stuck or spiraling in terms of maintenance/recovery, probably for weeks at a time.
In recent days (pretty low anxiety! knock on wood) I have sleep that's almost 2hrs shorter per night, waking up naturally. That came very progressively (sleep quality), then very suddenly (lower needs). Also a great gain, though I also aged a decade and that must contribute as well.
Note that I faded out caffeine by progressively substituting for decaf. No headaches this way (from a peak of ~4 cups a day, I would say?). It sounds like you're doing the same, which I really recommend! There's no need to self-flagellate on top of what's usually a major habit adjustment.
The psychoactive effects of caffeine are massive after you detox for a few weeks. I had a full cup after not having caffeine for a month and the effect was massive. Near euphoria, constant task switching, some anxiety, etc. I personally felt the effect was much stronger than weed has ever felt for me and comparable to having 5+ drinks of alcohol.
But the effect quickly drops to almost nothing very rapidly. I started having caffeine 3 out of 7 days because having a low caffeine tolerance was too annoying. One coke, tea, chocolate would completely destroy my sleep.
I take a 30 min bike ride midday, not a hard ride, just get on the bike and start peddling, I'll now do a leisurely 6-8 mi.
My cognition in my 40s is now better than it was at 26, at 37 before I started this routine I thought my engineering career was over, the post lunch crash, the mental tiredness, just terrible.
The fact that we build our brain work spaces so distant from physical movement is bad for our mental health, our soles, our souls, and doing untold economic damage to our country (the u.s. in my case.), I tried lunch walks for years and it's just too fucking boring, cycling is great, after work I rollerblade and it's so mentally engaging and distinct it obliterates the after work fog.
I had heart/chest pains from Lisdextroamphetamine (ADHD meds) that went away when I stopped drinking coffee. And I drunk very little, just one half cup in the morning.
Much less anxious now too, but that's more likely due to ADHD meds.
Even on the "milder" Methylphenidate you can experince clenching jaw, grinding teeth and a chafed tongue when consuming coffee, tea and even dark chocolate.
After habitually consuming coffee daily in large quantities for two decades, I had mental health incident, during which I drank twice the amount of coffee and it felt like water. After that incident I still drink previous amount of coffee, but feel much better, much more rested, on an upward trajectory and like I have finally managed to escape the swamp I dragged myself into over many years.
After reevaluating your comment and my experience I declare that coffee is not always a cause of mental health incidents, sometimes it might help people.
I like this worldview. Prior to coffee, Europe was in the grip of the beer dwarves. Coffee demons took over and invented nationalism, capitalism and Keynesian economics.
Agree, I drink it a lot and then stop drinking it at least once a year for a few weeks, and for sure it's a different mode of mind, but can't really qualify it besides that I remember my thinking being softer, calmer and perhaps even "more correct" without coffee.
(But I never had any mental-health incidents, and I drink a lot of it, more than all people that I personally know.)
For many years I go to the same vacation spot (kayaking in the most beautiful nature place I have seen) and go cold-turkey. I didn't notice any side effects of lack of coffee besides slower muddier thinking. After I go back and start drinking coffee, feel back to normal.
I also had a very big life altering mental health incident very recently, drank A LOT of coffee during and I feel it helped, now I am much more calm, "more correct" despite drinking coffee like before.
Based on this I posit that coffee is used by humans to offset unwanted mentality changes, not a cause of unwanted mentality changes.
Consider yourself lucky...You are one of these mythical creatures who don't get migraines from caffeine withdrawal. My wife is the same.
When I quit I get splitting headaches that are way more severe than a typical tension headache. Completely debilitating without medication. Get them for a week or so (also get the muddier thinking but I could live with that).
The overwhelming majority of the enjoyable coffee experiences are caffeinated. While there is good decaf out there it's not the norm, specially in smaller markets.
I think they meant that coffee contains a lot of other compounds than just caffeine, which something like energy drinks or teas will not include. So you can't necessarily extend conclusions from a study on consumption of coffee to effects that other drinks that happen to include caffeine might have.
Edit: this is especially relevant here, as the study found similar effects in decaffeinated coffee drinkers. So the effects they observed, if real, are not related to caffeine.
And they didn't come to the same conclusion then. They changed their behavior, don't like the new behavior and are extrapolating that beyond the new behavior.
I do believe a lot of it boils down to tolerance. I for example feel basically 0 effects, and drink it just because I like the taste (of a good one with milk, or exceptionally some good espresso / ristretto after big dinner).
I recently traveled and didn't have coffee for more than a week. No change I could feel, no craving, nothing. But one of my ex-gf was quite sensitive on many things, had frequent headaches, low blood pressure and coffee was helping with those visibly. So YMMV.
Yes, same here. I have schizoaffective disorder and realizing that caffeine affected my mental health so drastically was the beginning of my recovery journey 30 years ago. I can use caffeine now as a drug when I need it. Same with alcohol.
I didn't say it was the cause of the mental health incident! And I don't believe it to have been "the cause", either. It just happens to have been the thing that caused me to abruptly stop.
It likely was a contributor, insofar as the incident had poor sleep as a contributing factor, and I do know with some certainty the caffeine habit had been causing some (likely not all) of my sleep problems. I can also tell you the very worst day of that incident was when I mistakenly consumed caffeine again prior to being recovered enough for that to be safe; that was a horrible glimpse at what that drug can do to you when you're in an already very unstable state. Caffeine definitely can aggravate all kinds of symptoms, even when you're in a relatively stable state. It's a stimulant, after all.
But I think caffeine consumption is… only one factor of many in causes of that incident, and doesn't deserve any special blame. The relevance of the mental health incident here is really that it gave me a chance and a good reason to abruptly stop, and therefore also the opportunity to see what getting the brain back into the caffeination ritual again feels like. (I've tried taking it for a few consecutive days more than once since then, and not particularly enjoyed it. I've also tried it on single isolated days.)
I once quit caffeine cold for 6 months: 2 weeks of pure hell then it was like I never craved it until life got real and stressful and I fell off the wagon. Today, I drink my espresso with a dot of lowfat milk now and life is currently too real and stressful to consider trying to drop it again. I do suspect some of us likely have undiagnosed low-level mood disorders leaving us highly functional but discontent and caffeine is the spackling compound used to plug the hole in our souls.
I stopped drinking coffee for a month and didn't notice any difference in my anxiety/mood/etc, so I returned to my regular schedule (3-4 large cups in the mornings).
I quit caffeine for a year but it didn't work out for me. I felt mentally sluggish all the time; there would be times I'd be staring at my screen with my mind resisting the act of processing any information. I also noticed I became very sensitive with how much sleep I got, and if it was anything less than 8 hours the day would be miserable. I could be a special case here with altered brain development since even as a small child I was drinking liters of black sun tea. So since my withdrawal experiment I've highly regulated my caffeine intake with pills with a maximum of 200mg a day before noon, although I will sometimes cut back to 50-100mg a day during periods when my life isn't running full steam. This has worked out well for me.
When work was chill I went to decaf for the morning espresso on weekdays, and enjoyed real coffee on weekends. I took glee in withholding energy from work that I redirected to my personal time.
Then when work picked up, I went back to regular coffee everyday.
I don’t think there’s a hole in my soul though. And caffeine degrades my personality a little bit (to my own judgment).
This study considers caffeine concumption outside of coffee, so an alternative caffeine source might be worth looking into. That was my takeaway, at least. I also drink espresso, for the caffeine and the noticable ease on my gut compared to drip or pressed coffee.
Funded by the Institute for Scientific Information on Coffee (ISIC) — an industry body — which is a notable conflict of interest the authors disclose but don't extensively discuss
Ah yes, yet another in the long line of results which confirm our suspicion of water being wet to have been right all along. In this case it's something that anyone who has spent a significant amount of time around routine coffee drinkers and regularly consumed it themselves already took for granted.
I drank a lot of coffee until I forgot to pack instant on a 3 day backpacking trip. Headache the whole time that I cured in 5 minutes by drinking a mt dew the minute we got back to civilization. Figured it wasn't worth it and weaned off.
Then it turned out my rate of getting migraines dropped off considerably. But I love coffee, so I tried decaf. Migraines returned to being more frequent. So that was that.
If I could get it without the side effects, I surely would. Right now I'm drinking a hot cup of delicious roasted barley tea. But it's not the same.
I agree. I'm deep into specialty coffee and I love making and drinking coffee a lot, but three cups is already higher than what I drink on a normal day. Also, most of the time when I go above this threshold, I drink decaf.
One early in the morning, one maybe a bit before lunch, and one in the afternoon. Doesn't seem too out there. And you probably approach 5 cups if you're normalizing the size of a cup and seeing that people generally get bigger cups than that (I'd imagine one large cup in the morning and another in the afternoon would easily put you at 5 for the purposes of the study)
The reactions to your comment got me curious enough to check. The mug I use for coffee and tea holds almost exactly 400 mL when comfortably full and I used to drink 2 of those per day (across 12 hours or so). Based on that, personally I'd consider ~800 mL of black coffee to be on the high end of moderate consumption.
It depends on how much caffeine is in your cup. Rather than measuring the size of a cup, I would go by the amount of coffee, as in the weight of the beans, used to brew it. The actual amount of caffeine is not as easy to measure, and even for the same kind of beans, there is natural variation.
For a traditional Italian espresso, about 7g of coffee beans are extracted. For a third-wave double espresso, it's usually 18g or more.
In my opinion, 10x7g is a lot. 2x12g is more than enough for me.
caffeine extraction is largely a function of time in contact with water. Espresso is quite quick brew, so has less caffeine than other brewing methods (yes, there are plenty of other factors)
There is no realistic scenario where, no matter your extractions or bean selections, 6-10 shots of espresso a day is not an enormous amount of caffeine
A grande americano at Starbucks is a 16 oz drink with three shots of espresso. Have one in the morning and one in the afternoon and you are at six shots of espresso. That doesn't seem all that enormous to me.
It was a slight attempt to highlight that the conversation about a purely subjective thing is missing the point entirely. In the context of scientific discovery trying to qualify the outcome based on an individual's personal interpretation of descriptive words is a fool's errand. Attempting to justify one's personal habits or predilections is squarely in the flat earther camp of scientific belief.
I drink a small cup in the morning (like 250 ml) and 1-2 Moka pot espressos (like one shot). This typically happens between 7-10am. No more coffee after that most of the time. I like to keep it in the morning routine with breakfast. Green tea and water in my afternoons.
Personally, I don't feel any kind of "drug like" effects from this routine. I wonder about the strength of coffee people are drinking and the effects of drinking throughout the day rather than just the morning.
Anecdotally, during grad school I drank more per serving and throughout the day, and I certainly felt quite different than my current routine.
Like most things, I think people need to find some moderation/balance.
It's less about the strength of coffee than about your metabolism. I used to be unaffected by caffeine, and now it takes a few sips in the morning to mess with my sleep in the evening - sth that started happening in my twenties I believe, possibly liver-related.
I can have a coffee a bit before bed if I really want. I also used to think I had a "high metabolism", but don't say that anymore since it comes off as kind of bogus.
I never used to drink any caffeine. In fact the few times I had tried it when I was a teen or my 20s it made my chest pound my heart raced so much. It was Lebanese strong cardamom coffee so maybe not the best example.
Then at age 34 I started a new job my first shift work job, late evenings, some overnight jobs. I started off with fancy coffee like french vanilla. A year or so later the first Starbucks opened. I was drinking venti quad shot lattes.
Then energy drinks were permitted for sale here (we had a can ban for years). I recall after drinking a Rockstar 750ml for breakfast and the following muscle spasms made me consider I should tone it down.
So I've settled a bit a small coffee in the evening. Sometimes I don't even finish it.
I’m super interested in this sort of study! However, it looks like n=62 here, which I think weakens the results —they’re probably just useful as suggestions of possible effects. Also, any food is expected to have similar effects on the microbiome. They didn’t test caffeine in isolation. In some ways that’s better (I don’t consume caffeine in isolation), but in some ways that’s less useful (it’s possible you get similar results from many random vegetables)
The LSD and sleeping pills were not in the original study I believe. That might be an artists representation of the image at the bottom of the original study, which I remember showed the results in a single row.
Don't ask me why some blogger posted the PDF in 2013, and also don't ask me how English Wikipedia editors determined that a Wordpress blog is a "Reliable Secondary Source". I did locate the original on NASA's own website. Public Domain (USGov).
What a find! It's on page 106 but I didn't immediately do a control-f to find it or look at the table of contents. My gosh, all the stuff I flipped through before that... some things haven't changed (e.g. Digikey and National Instruments ads).
But they did test both caffeinated and uncaffeinated coffee, and found the same effects in both, indicating that the effect is caused by something in coffee other than the caffeine
Typical extraction yield is 18-20%. For a 20g dose that's 4g of material consumed, or about 30 individual beans.
I wonder if you could find similar effects with 4g or broccoli sprouts, or garlic, or ginger, or cumin seed, shiitake mushroom, seaweed, soursop leaf, or...
It’s actually kind of crazy to think that a large portion of a country’s population could be “high” on it basically all of the time. And there is a huge industry in place for delivering said drug to as many people as possible by having it available on almost every street corner.
And that most people take a fairly non-chalant attitude to giving this drug to kids through sweet drinks that are primarily marketed to them as well.
The scale of it is kinda mind boggling to me.
Mind the nonsensical rant, I haven’t had my coffee yet this morning…
That's normalising clean-ness (i.e. the state of being free of all psychoactive chemicals) perhaps too much.
The original humans adapted to a wide range of diets across the world (one reason why we're such a successful species), but most groups seem to consume mild psychoactives a lot (it's hard not to, so many wild plants have some level of activity) and seek out more powerful ones occasionally and for specific situations.
This week as I tried to lower my coffee usage or stop altogether, I had dropped from 3 cups a day to 1. That one suddenly started to make me feel noticeably high, like a bump of cocaine in the morning. I realised that I craved it in the same way and it clicked for me - coffee is literally just a drug I like to take by myself and read the newspaper. It's no different. It's the first thing I think of in the morning because I'm addicted. Currently trying to go cold turkey.
I went from 60oz per day to 36oz. I went from perpetually stimulated to basically on stimulated during work hours. Even with a minor cutback, I’ve noticed the change in potency of an individual dose as well.
My next goal is to cut back to one fully caffeinated drink in the moring and then doing decaf the rest of the day.
The ritualistic habit is the hardest thing to break for me. Also the social aspect of “let’s go for coffee” with friends, family, spouse etc…
Yup. Refined sugar probably is more dangerous to humans than caffeine even. Caffeine, to me at least, seems much less destructive in moderate long term use than sugar.
What surprises me is how many people drink coffee first thing in the morning. The organism is literally in wake-up mode, with cortisol spiking ~30min after wake up. So you get a caffeine AND a spike in cortisol at the same time.
Better to wait at least couple of hours after waking up.
I switched from caffeine (coffee) to theacrine (pills) and I like it so much more. I feel alert and focused without added anxiety. It doesn’t seem to affect my sleep at all. I really didn’t like how hard it was to quit coffee.
I don’t like that it’s a pill. I tried making my own theacrine drinks, but theacrine is so bitter that I never found one that I liked. I am still haunted by the chicory + theacrine drink I made…
Here is a fun citation with a brief summary. They suggest regular caffine use lowers your baseline and it just returns you to where you'd be if you weren't dependent.
University of Bristol. "Coffee consumption unrelated to alertness: Stimulating effects may be illusion, study finds." ScienceDaily. ScienceDaily, 3 June 2010. <www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/06/100602211940.htm>.
I used to drink a small amount of blisteringly strong coffee in the morning and after lunch, but nowadays I drink a massive amount of relatively weak coffee throughout the entire day. Weaker than you'd ever get from a shop or in an office.
That's been a big win for me: I feel like I get to enjoy the coffee more, and it eliminated the negative effects for me.
I no longer feel like I suffer when I don't have it. I miss it, the way I miss the sunlight in my office on a cloudy morning, but it's strictly a positive for me when it's around. I only get headaches if I go from 100 to 0, even one day of reduced intake is enough to avoid it for me.
When I'm exhausted and going to bed, I'll go fill the coffee machine, and catch myself thinking "oh boy, it's going to feel so great to wake up at 6am and drink this". Then I shake my head at myself and laugh and how absurd that sounds :D
Coffee is above running hot water in my hierarchy of needs. Seriously. If I were forced to choose between coffee and alcohol for the rest of my life, I'd choose coffee in a heartbeat.
A very interesting article, I have personal experience with:
> Coffee also affects the gastrointestinal tract. It increases stomach acidity and stimulates the release of hormones that aid digestion. Both caffeinated and decaffeinated coffee promote the contractility of ileal and colonic smooth muscle, helping prevent constipation
As the two times in my adult life I've tried to make an intended break from coffee, it has ended up with almost unbearable stomach pain caused by constipation.
It's good to know that this is not linked to caffeine as I thought, so I will try un-caffinated coffee instead now because I tend to think that my general "tiredness" comes from actual caffeine.
That fraction is going to depend a lot on the definition and the reference. I believe the 97% is the US standard for how much of the natural caffeine in green beans must be removed. You will note how this can be manipulated by using a more caffeine-abundant variety. EU standards are more sensible, stated in terms of caffeine content in the final product.
Either way, commercial decaf processes and normal brewing methods will yield something like 5-10mg of caffeine in a "decaf" dose of coffee, which is an order of magnitude less than usual.
It would have been interesting to see if there was any difference relating to CYP1A2 (Cytochrome P450 1A2), the fast metabolizers and the slow metabolizers.
What's cool is this effect exists even in decaf coffee, as someone who primarily drinks decaf black, for flavor and for a good night's rest as I'm sensitive to caffeine.
What kind of decaf coffee do you drink? There are differences between the cheap chemical Methylene way to create decaf coffee and the expensive co2 way to get rid of the caffeine.
I'm pretty sure I'm allergic to methylene-decaffeinated coffee. I discovered in the early 1990s that I'd get sneezy almost every time I drink decaf office coffee, but my home decaf didn't do that to me.
Hasn't happened in a long time, probably due to (1) avoiding cheap decaf and (2) the banning of meth-coffee (heh) in the US.
Is that methylene way even legal? It basically uses petroleum fuel in the process right? I assume it was outlawed a long time ago but that might be extreme naievete for US regulatory capability...
https://www.thedecafproject.com/ (Dec 2024) let you order matching swiss water, CO₂, and Ethyl Acetate (sugar cane byproduct) decaffeinated coffee from the same batches of beans. The EPA banned methylene chloride earlier in that year, but because of toxicity to workers, not because of risk from the resulting coffee itself (and it looks like the FDA didn't ban it.) So I guess you couldn't make decaf with it in the US but you could probably still import and sell it?
This discussion has been particularly insightful. I'm 47 and have been drinking 2 to 3 Mtn Dew Kickstarts a day for probably 10 years. I don't feel high, or jittery, or like I'm bouncing off walls. I have no trouble falling asleep, even drinking caffeine right up until bed time. But, I also have trouble focusing, am working with a psychologist on a possible ADHD (primarily inattentive) diagnosis, never dream, and am very forgetful.
Based on everything I'm reading below, and a "discussion" with Gemini, it's highly probable all of this is related. I know AI isn't a doctor, and confirmation bias and all of that, but even if it's all nonsense - backing off on caffeine or quitting entirely can only help.
So I'm going to star to day, by trying to not have any after 2pm. My regular bedtime is around midnight, so that's 10 hours. We'll see how it goes.
Caffeine evolved to deter insects. Coffee, tea, chocolate and some other plants all evolved caffeine independently due to similar evolutionary pressure.
Was this thread invaded by AI? Casually reading the first comments, 3 different users mentioned they had a recent "mental health incident" related to caffeine??
That doesn't seem even remotely surprising to me. Much of the readership here likely consumes inadvisable quantities of caffeine nearly every day and one of the most common side effects is anxiety followed closely by a number of other emotional perturbations.
Possibly AI, possibly younger folks (18-24). “Mental health incident” is only one step removed from algospeak like “unalived”, “seggs”, and “neurospicy”. A detached, memetic phrase that has been implanted into the lexicon by a toxic brew of algorithmic social media moderation and heavy exposure to LLM conversational patterns.
I must be weird, but coffee (or caffeine) doesn’t really “wake me up” in the mornings and I could drink it in the night and still sleep well. Because of that I don’t drink coffee; I prefer tea
I also don't find that caffeine wakes me up or keeps me alert. I used to have it a ton because I like the taste but then mostly stopped because I was having some anxiety issues and wanted to be sure caffeine wasn't a factor. Stopping it was zero problem at all for me, which doesn't align with what others say about stopping consumption. I don't know if my body's metabolism of it is super fast or if my brain is weird in some undiagnosed way that prevents the caffeine from working "correctly"
I find that the effects can be pretty subtle, and if I'm already tired there's usually no coming back. What I think has worked best for me is to re-up on caffeine a few hours before I think I'll be tired, or around when a previous dose is wearing off. Also, if trying to stay awake, food and entertainment are also quite important. If I hit a point where I'm hungry, cold, and tired, and going to the kitchen to eat sounds like a chore, it's usually too late for me. When the bed's closer, it's hard to resist.
I've also noticed that I have a sort of natural energy in the morning. I think of it as being similar to how a seed has enough energy in itself to sprout and then get sunlight. It's probably so I can make myself eat and whatnot. I don't really need caffeine to "wake up" as much as I need it to stay awake later in the day, and even if I do have a coffee with breakfast, I'll often get tired before the normal day is over.
tea also has caffeine, although in smaller quantities. Maybe you mean that you don't care so you go by taste, just specifying because there's a common misconception about tea not having caffeine.
all tea has caffeine unless it's decaf. some things that aren't tea are called tea casually, but they aren't tea, for instance peppermint "tea" is not tea. by the same logic that one would call peppermint a tea, one would have to call coffee a tea. and beef broth.
That depends on culture. All camelia s. teas have it (green etc) but almost none of common herbal teas in Europe have it (chamomile, menta, sage etc.) They are not called casually teas.
are you saying chamomile isn't called tea but it's one of the teas without caffeine? if so that's very confused.
camelia sinensis is tea. when i said that other things are casually called tea, i mean that what chamomile tea, for example, ought to be called is a tisane or an herbal infusion. casually, people might call it a tea; some people are so casual about it that they think it actually is tea. but it isn't.
I have not much followed the science of gut microbiome and psychology. Is this really going where this article is pointing? That we can tease out causation in foods and habits via gut microbiome towards behavior and psychology? Pretty rad.
There's a decent amount of research going into the hormones that our GI biome produce and how it affects us. Our body has a few different biomes and they all seem to play somewhat important roles.
Studies seem to indicate that coffee is at least as healthy, if not healthier than tea, and I have not heard this about caffeine specifically (aka the same effects coming from pills or energy drinks).
One fun fact: we still haven’t figured out why coffee makes us poop. We’ve studied every chemical in there and can’t seem to find a link, but the association is uh… well-known.
The only good thing that keeps me from collapsing into a state of limbo is coffee and now, even that's bad (seems more like a mixed bag, but still)? Sigh.
Maybe I have some neurological issue or something but whenever I quit coffee I find it extremely difficult to maintain any kind of motivation to sit in an open plan office and code. Coffee makes me a worker bee, I can understand why employers give it away for free.
Yeah, exactly. I can totally relate to this. I have actually monitored my productivity on an excel sheet and the days with coffee win by a large margin. I am not sure if it's withdrawal symptoms on the days without, though.
"These findings reveal previously unrecognised effects of coffee on the microbiota–gut–brain axis, suggesting that microbiome profiles could potentially predict coffee consumption patterns", or, perhaps, just ask the patient?
If you can predict someone's coffee intake based on testing of their microbiome then you've proven that coffee intake has predictable effects on the microbiome.
The important part isn't predicting coffee use, it's just the proof that there's you can predict and perhaps control in the opposite direction leading to more research.
This has let me evaluate what caffeine does with fresh eyes, so to say, because I can now consume it occasionally while having many non-caffeinated days to compare to. It's a profoundly psychoactive substance and does a lot of things to cognition. I guess I have decided I don't enjoy how it feels, having previously been dependent on it.
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