I think Studio Ghibli's 'secret sauce' is the "Kishōtenketsu" or four act structure that makes Studio Ghibli special:

1. Ki (Introduction) - Sets up characters and situation.

2. Shō (Development) - Expands the characters and fleshes them out.

3. Ten (Twist) - Introduces a new element or change.

4. Ketsu (Conclusion) - Shows the outcome and connections between elements.

In contrast Western films usually follow a three act structure:

1. Setup - Introduces the hero, often stepping into the unknown, and establishes the initial conflict and sets the stage for the story.

2. Confrontation - The hero faces mounting challenges and conflicts, often involving threats to innocent people or community. Stakes are raised and the story progresses to a conclusion.

3. Resolution - The story culminates in a climatic confrontation between the hero and the villain. Some sacrifice is usually paid, the hero triumphs, justice is served and order returns to the community.

I grew up on Disney and the three act structure, so when I experienced Studio Ghibli for the first time with Princess Mononoke it felt very different, fresh and more mature. While I don't necessarily love all of Studio Ghibli's catalogue, I do treasure Princess Mononoke, Kiki's Delivery Service, and Porco Rosso.

In the case of Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind, I highly recommend reading the manga over watching the Studio Ghibli anime.

Miyazaki stated that he was trying to break everything he knows about story structure with Mononoke. Last time I saw it, it became clear to me that it’s almost impossible to fit into any story structure and it’s just one giant crescendo to the end. More like a minimalist music piece than anything.

Mononoke and Spirited Away specifically feel like they have several 'extra' acts that make them seem longer than they are. Though looking back at both I'm not sure what I'd cut.

I wouldn't cut anything. They "just work", it's just that they don't follow a conventional structure. I don't want them to follow familiar patterns.

Yeah, you guessed it: two of my favorite animated movies!

Ngl the idea that the average commenter is thinking about how to make changes to Miyazaki's two best movies is so funny to me. It's like your average tourist walking up to Van Gogh's Starry Night and being like "I dunno I think I would do it differently."

I have yet to run into anyone that hasn't let out a bit of a sigh when sen gets on that train.

I love the movie, I actually think Naussica is his best movie, followed by Princess. However as someone who grew up on western movies there is a rhythmic miss to these movies, a pacing that is unlike other movies. I never said it made the movies bad, just that it was, I guess strange... unexpected.

.. and like I said, looking at the movie, there is nothing there I would cut nothing that would bring it back to the expected western rhythm.

That's anecdotal at best.

I haven't watched the movie with anyone (and I don't mean anime fans -- which I'm not one, by the way) who was bored or frustrated by the train scene. A screenshot of that scene is often featured in articles about the movie, so at least reviewers seem to like it. I think it's one of the most hauntingly beautiful passages, too.

"The expected Western rythm" isn't something to be treasured at all costs, if at all. "A pacing that is different" is not the same as a "rythmic miss". It's just part of media literacy to be able to appreciate different rhythms. And come on, these aren't alien or bizarre movies, I've watched movies where the pacing really threw me off, and these barely register.

We do agree Mononoke is superb, so there's that!

So seem to be overreacting to my point and pretty defensive.

I'm not saying that the train scene is a miss, i've very specifically saying that it as at that point that i've seen people check the timeline and see a remaining timeline that 'feels' longer than it 'should' be as an example.

I'm not saying the western rhythm is the only thing that matters or that all other structures are inferior. I'm saying that these movies have a different structure, and that's honestly it. I've seen it throw people off, it throws me off, I don't want them to end, I don't throw away my copy of it but it's a bump in the road nonetheless.

I love these movies they are some of my favorite gifts to give to my young nieces. I give them as a gift on a holiday and we do a watch of them while my siblings and parents and whatnot inevitably watch sports. I think this easter it might be finally time for mononoke (the oldest is 16 and her sister is 11.. i think it might still be a little intense for the 11 year old).

I'm not sure that I would call myself an anime 'fan' but I have consumed, and continue to consume anime as part of my media diet. I don't watch every series that gets hyped by the anime community but I catch one here and there, sometimes they stick and sometimes they don't. (recent things I've enjoyed are DanDaDan, Delicious in Dungeon and the Ranma 1/2 remake.)

I'm not overreacting, and why would I be defensive? I'm not Miyazaki, it's not my work to defend.

We agree the pacing and some of the structure is mildly different to some Western cinema (but not too much, there's nothing radically different either, which is why Disney/Pixar found Ghibli so inspiring).

I guess what's puzzling is your wording: you say the rythm is different (arguably true), that you wouldn't cut anything (agreed) but also call it a "rythmic miss".

What you claim about the train scene is both confusing and feels anecdotal -- I've never seen people do what you claim. The scene is there, it works, and it's beautiful and I've never seen anybody check the time at this point.

That's all I say: it's not a "rythmic miss" and it seems presumptuous to claim otherwise.

We do not disagree on anything else, really.

Addendum: I've upvoted you because I don't think anyone should be downvoted just for expressing an opinion about art, as long as they do it politely.

Also,

> I actually think Naussica is his best movie

I don't agree but I love Nausicaa's visuals. They are also hauntingly beautiful. I owe it to myself to get the manga, too.

I picked this up a bunch of years back (https://a.co/d/9jAfNMx), it's a pretty nice edition.

While you're at it why don't you tell me what parts you'd cut from Citizen Kane, Hamlet, and the Mona Lisa.

They look like the same steps to me, with steps 1 and 2 both being Setup. The dramatic arc is fairly universal, and Miyazaki is hardly an exotic unfamiliar with western culture.

GP's lists fall somewhat short of explaining the two most important differences:

1. Kishoutenketsu prefers to introduce the primary conflict as late as possible, whereas any writer in Hollywood will try to introduce it as early as possible.

2. Kishoutenketsu prefers to frame the primary conflict as a difference in perspective that must be bridged from both sides, rather than outright competition between irreconcilable goals.

These differences aren't fundamental (you can find all the counterexamples you like, especially if you cite movies with twist endings) but they are encouraged by style guides and deliberately (or even subconsciously) prioritized by writers, to varying effect.

> whereas any writer in Hollywood will try to introduce it as early as possible

I like the Lynch version of this in Lost Highway:

1. Conflict: someone sent us a video of the outside of our house.

2. Rising Conflict: oh no, now they sent us a video of the inside of our house!

3. Conglitch: now they sent us a video of me murdering my wife?!? Didn't I just see her go in the bedroom?

4. Sogflatch: wait wut now I'm getting sentenced for murdering my wife?!?

5. Segfault: Hey Warden, the guy who murdered his wife disappeared and now there's a different guy in his cell!!!

6. Reboot: New guy adjusting to life after materializing in and getting released from the murderer's cell...

There's a similar game with conflict in Blue Velvet where "teen coming-of-age plot arc" becomes entangled with a separate "drug-addled adult plot arc." The latter ends up dominating to the point where the "teen drama" bullies get scared and drive off from what would have been the climax of their plot arc (never to be seen again!).